Curse

Pistachio · Aug 02, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

Increase their armor to that of warriors. and reduce the armor buffs of their skills to compensate for balance issues.

So they can move in on the Warrior's territory? I don't think so. They need to find their own niche in the game, and buffing their armor so they can step up to a tank rank is not the answer - even if they did get nerfed on their skills.

Short · Aug 02, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

So they can move in on the Warrior's territory? I don't think so. They need to find their own niche in the game, and buffing their armor so they can step up to a tank rank is not the answer - even if they did get nerfed on their skills.

Warriors get shields. Although I think a buff to 75 AL would be enough.

moriz · Aug 02, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

the main problem with dervs is that they don't have a niche. warriors and assassins occupy the same niche as dervs. indeed, dervs seems to be nothing more than a mending wammo on steroids.

with 9 professions excluding dervishes, i don't really see another niche that dervs can occupy. i think anet agrees with that too, which is why the derv has been left to rot.

Reverend Dr · Aug 03, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Stop assuming that dervishes are 'broken'

Yes they are ill used, this is due to efficiency and effectiveness. They are plenty effective against the PvE environment, but they aren't as effective and as efficient as other classes. Buff dervishes and they'd push something else out. But the issue really isn't with dervishes being overpowered, its that dervishes aren't as overpowered as the other builds.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 03, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop assuming that dervishes are 'broken'

Yes they are ill used, this is due to efficiency and effectiveness. They are plenty effective against the PvE environment, but they aren't as effective and as efficient as other classes. Buff dervishes and they'd push something else out. But the issue really isn't with dervishes being overpowered, its that dervishes aren't as overpowered as the other builds.

Same could be said of Rits pre-buff.

Anyway, here are some things that could possibly be done for Dervishes that'd make them worth using IMO (With PvE in mind):

- Bring back Enchantment juggling. Revert Pious Assault and possibly shred a few of seconds from skills like Heart of Holy Flame, Grenth's fingers, Dust Cloak, Ect
-Buff Avatar of Balthazar
-Buff Myticism's inherent effect (not a must, but it'd be nice.)
-Make HoF maintainable
-Remove disabling of forms
-Give dervs a reason to use Wind Prayers other then Attacker's Insight
-Make Vow of Strength usable again, buff Grenth's Grasp and Onslaught. Onslaught especially.

Catchphrase · Aug 03, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the main problem with dervs is that they don't have a niche. warriors and assassins occupy the same niche as dervs. indeed, dervs seems to be nothing more than a mending wammo on steroids.

with 9 professions excluding dervishes, i don't really see another niche that dervs can occupy. i think anet agrees with that too, which is why the derv has been left to rot.

Frontline AoE disruption/pressure. Pressure as in effects like daze, knockdown or interruption given from ending of short enchantments. This will place high emphasis on positioning to avoid the adjacent/nearby ending effects of the dervish enchantments. Think of them like a living walking trap.

FoxBat · Aug 03, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Scythes are pretty freaking strong in PvE. Just knock AoHM out of war/sin's reach (mysticism duration, no damage conversion) and there will be enough reason right there.

Fixing them in PvP is an entirely other pursuit, nothing short of a complete overhaul will do.

Reverend Dr · Aug 03, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Same could be said of Rits pre-buff.

And it is a vicious circle. Lets always buff the least used classes. Too bad there is always going to be a least used class.

By and large the reason classes aren't being used isn't because they are underpowered compared to the game's difficulty, but underpowered compared to the other overpowered classes. Unfortunately by and large the PvE community can't stand nerfs as it appears to them as Anet taking something away from them.

reaper with no name · Aug 03, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Currently, every profession has a reason to be used, except the dervish. That's the problem that needs to be remedied. Dervishes should be the best melee AoE class, but they aren't. If they were the best scythe users, that would fix it. The easiest way would be to nerf AoHM for everyone else, but as it turns out, the fun of the few scythe warriors and scythe sins is more important than the fun of all the primary dervishes (well, that's what a good portion of the people taking the poll seem to think, at least).

I think it's worth bringing up, though, that simply reverting Pious Assault would change nothing. Warriors and Assassins would just start using it, and they'd still beat the dervish at his own game. Unless all the enchantments to be used with it were changed to give dervishes a huge advantage with them over dervish secondaries, then there's little point in changing Pious Assault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

So they can move in on the Warrior's territory? I don't think so. They need to find their own niche in the game, and buffing their armor so they can step up to a tank rank is not the answer - even if they did get nerfed on their skills.

I agree that armor is not the way to go, because it doesn't feel right for the profession, but you have to remember, as it stands now, Warriors and Assassins are doing exactly that to the dervish. How would you feel if your necromancer was suddenly pointless because an Elementalist could use all of your skills better than you could because someone found out Energy Storage synergizes with necro skills better than SR? Or if you were a Ranger and a Monk could suddenly outshoot you with a bow? Or if you were an Assassin and a Paragon could use daggers better than you could? Or if you were a Warrior and someone discovered that Ritualists could tank better than you could while using all of your weapons better than you?

You wouldn't like that very much, would you? No, of course you wouldn't. You'd want those guys moving in on your territory to get slapped silly with the nerfbat, or you'd want to get buffed so that you could reclaim your niche from those thieves. Or, if all else failed, you'd want to be given a new niche that those other guys couldn't take away from you.

So, then, why do you want to deny us dervishes that? How come we don't get the same rights and privileges that you guys enjoy? How come we have to suck while you get to be secure in the knowledge that you are more useful to your party than any other profession that tries to do your job?

It's class discrimination, that's what it is!

You're all meanies!

*runs away sobbing*

Lishy · Aug 03, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

A warrior TECHNICALLY is better than a sin with daggers due to AP ^^

reaper with no name · Aug 03, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Critical Strikes says hi.

Arkantos · Aug 03, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

A warrior TECHNICALLY is better than a sin with daggers due to AP ^^

Please tell me that was a joke so I can laugh.

...please Kain

Lishy · Aug 03, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Assassins are better Earth Shakers because of Critical Strikes

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 03, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

And it is a vicious circle. Lets always buff the least used classes. Too bad there is always going to be a least used class.

By and large the reason classes aren't being used isn't because they are underpowered compared to the game's difficulty, but underpowered compared to the other overpowered classes. Unfortunately by and large the PvE community can't stand nerfs as it appears to them as Anet taking something away from them.

It's not about what class gets the 'least use', and this isn't about buffing dervishes because they are the 'least used' class.

This is about buffing dervishes because the ONLY thing they excel at doing that is unique to their class is Orders and Forms. Forms of which are reduiced to use in certain areas (melandru for condition heavy, ect). Wounding Strike does not count because, in fact, Assassins can do it too. and better.

And this also isn't so much about buffing dervishes because other classes are better, so much as buffing dervishes because they aren't even the best AT THEIR OWN WEAPON.

Now on that arguement, it could be argued that Assassins and warriors run Spears better, but you don't see paragons complaining because they aren't focused on chucking spears. they are party support.

Right now, the dervish IS NOT underpowered persay, there's just no logical reason to use them, save die hard fans and such.

Dusk_ · Aug 03, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Currently, every profession has a reason to be used, except the dervish. That's the problem that needs to be remedied. Dervishes should be the best melee AoE class, but they aren't. If they were the best scythe users, that would fix it. The easiest way would be to nerf AoHM for everyone else, but as it turns out, the fun of the few scythe warriors and scythe sins is more important than the fun of all the primary dervishes (well, that's what a good portion of the people taking the poll seem to think, at least).

I think it's worth bringing up, though, that simply reverting Pious Assault would change nothing. Warriors and Assassins would just start using it, and they'd still beat the dervish at his own game. Unless all the enchantments to be used with it were changed to give dervishes a huge advantage with them over dervish secondaries, then there's little point in changing Pious Assault.

I agree that armor is not the way to go, because it doesn't feel right for the profession, but you have to remember, as it stands now, Warriors and Assassins are doing exactly that to the dervish. How would you feel if your necromancer was suddenly pointless because an Elementalist could use all of your skills better than you could because someone found out Energy Storage synergizes with necro skills better than SR? Or if you were a Ranger and a Monk could suddenly outshoot you with a bow? Or if you were an Assassin and a Paragon could use daggers better than you could? Or if you were a Warrior and someone discovered that Ritualists could tank better than you could while using all of your weapons better than you?

You wouldn't like that very much, would you? No, of course you wouldn't. You'd want those guys moving in on your territory to get slapped silly with the nerfbat, or you'd want to get buffed so that you could reclaim your niche from those thieves. Or, if all else failed, you'd want to be given a new niche that those other guys couldn't take away from you.

So, then, why do you want to deny us dervishes that? How come we don't get the same rights and privileges that you guys enjoy? How come we have to suck while you get to be secure in the knowledge that you are more useful to your party than any other profession that tries to do your job?

It's class discrimination, that's what it is!

You're all meanies!

*runs away sobbing*

Or...you know, you could avoid the whole "My scythe is bigger than yours" one-upmanship altogether, and actually try to make Dervishes different.

Like focusing on what Dervishes are designed to be in combat, which is close range enchantment spamming. AKA, something that all the other classes aren't capable of.

Tenebrae · Aug 03, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Like focusing on what Dervishes are designed to be in combat, which is close range enchantment spamming. AKA, something that all the other classes aren't capable of.

Yes because like we all know , being a melee char is about that , spamming close range enchantment . It gives you an automatic 150+dps and thats why they are better are used more often than warriors and sins
.....
oh wait.

A main att that doesnt give +dmg , or helps pumping up dps ( greatly ) is not good for a melee , if they fix mysticism , things will change a lot for D's and thats a fact.

draxynnic · Aug 03, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Dervishes already have inbuild "symbiosis effect" - their armor has inherent +25 hp efect.

That's just an almost inconsequential hit point bonus. I was thinking something like Symbiosis that stacks on more hit points as enchantments get added. Even at just one point per rank, that would start geting significant at around 3-4 enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

A main att that doesnt give +dmg , or helps pumping up dps ( greatly ) is not good for a melee , if they fix mysticism , things will change a lot for D's and thats a fact.

People used point-blank area-of-effects before the Dervish existed, as Elementalist primaries and secondaries. 'Course, that was also before HM...

Still, the point is that the Dervish may not be supposed to be a physical class, but a PBAOE spellcaster that uses a melee weapon because it's convenient. Dervishes don't need to be the king of scythes to be viable - they just need to be the best at what they do (and what they do needs to be a viable strategy).

Mysticism may not help with hitting people with scythes, but it does help with firing off PBAOE damage and conditions in quick succession. Maybe Mysticism could stand to be better, maybe the offensive enchantments could stand to be better, but I don't think Mysticism has to be made to directly influence damage like Strength and Critical Strikes does. After all, if all you're doing with your dervish is swinging the scythe, then really you ARE playing a Warrior or Assassin with a scythe and not a dervish... and it's probably not so much of a surprise that the W/D or A/D is more effective at, well, playing like a W/D or A/D.

Tenebrae · Aug 03, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Still, the point is that the Dervish may not be supposed to be a physical class, but a PBAOE spellcaster that uses a melee weapon because it's convenient. Dervishes don't need to be the king of scythes to be viable - they just need to be the best at what they do (and what they do needs to be a viable strategy).

Thats a big guess , based only on the way D is now , i GUESS we will never know what Anet had in mind

. Btw i dont see how a scythe is chosen to be a D weapon if its main goal is to spam PBaoE , poor choice imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Mysticism may not help with hitting people with scythes, but it does help with firing off PBAOE damage and conditions in quick succession. Maybe Mysticism could stand to be better, maybe the offensive enchantments could stand to be better, but I don't think Mysticism has to be made to directly influence damage like Strength and Critical Strikes does.

The problem is , taking D as a melee scythe killer or as a melee enchant pbaoe spammer , mysticism doesnt realy BOOST either. Str affects DIRECTLY damage done on skills and CStrikes affects DIRECTLY on damage done and e-management but Mysticism only HELPS to D's e-management that HELPS to spam pbaoe ench that HELPS to do damage while you are in melee range. See my point ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

After all, if all you're doing with your dervish is swinging the scythe, then really you ARE playing a Warrior or Assassin with a scythe and not a dervish... and it's probably not so much of a surprise that the W/D or A/D is more effective at, well, playing like a W/D or A/D.

After all if you play your Dervish WITHOUT swinging a scythe you are playing like a caster or like the main user of the weapon you are using instead of the Scythe. The point is that no prof is only "a weapon swinger" , Assassins can play as a D and even as a caster with D.Arts and S.arts attributes but is not its main function.

No one is saying they cant but at least they SHOULD have a main att that directly affects them when they are using the weapon they are meant to use. Imho Mysticism can be compared to a secondary att like deadly arts +benefits of a main att but is VERY poor as a main att .

draxynnic · Aug 03, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Thats a big guess , based only on the way D is now , i GUESS we will never know what Anet had in mind

. Btw i dont see how a scythe is chosen to be a D weapon if its main goal is to spam PBaoE , poor choice imho.

Keeps them in melee range, where they want to be to use their spells, and having a weapon that strikes multiple targets synergises well with spells that hit multiple targets. Seems a pretty good fit to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

The problem is , taking D as a melee scythe killer or as a melee enchant pbaoe spammer , mysticism doesnt realy BOOST either. Str affects DIRECTLY damage done on skills and CStrikes affects DIRECTLY on damage done and e-management but Mysticism only HELPS to D's e-management that HELPS to spam pbaoe ench that HELPS to do damage while you are in melee range. See my point ?

Energy Storage doesn't boost an Elementalist's damage either. Nor does Soul Reaping. Instead, they provide energy that each profession can use to cast spells to kill things. Mysticism is aimed at doing the same.

In fact, even among physical damage dealers, Rangers don't get a damage increase from their primary either, even if they're focused on damage rather than disruption. Instead, just like Energy Storage, Soul Reaping and Mysticism, the Ranger primary helps in energy management. Now, you could argue that Mysticism isn't as good at energy management as other e-management primaries, but maybe that means it just needs to be made better at what it does rather than reworked entirely.

Catchphrase · Aug 03, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Thats a big guess , based only on the way D is now , i GUESS we will never know what Anet had in mind

. Btw i dont see how a scythe is chosen to be a D weapon if its main goal is to spam PBaoE , poor choice imho.

Because PBAoE effects coupled with the ridiculous mechanism of scythe is enough to put any team on high alert. The current skills given have completely skewed people's concept of the profession.

Looking at the old Pious Assault and the end effects of short recharge enchantments like Aura of Thorns has shed plenty of insight how Anet wishes dervish to be played; which is to cast an offensive enchantment from time to time instead of casting multiple enchantments in succession and remove it via attack skills when adjacent to a target to weaken it. However this purpose is defeated with gimmick skills like Mystic Sandstorm and threadbare incentives to remove enchantments prematurely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

The problem is , taking D as a melee scythe killer or as a melee enchant pbaoe spammer , mysticism doesnt realy BOOST either. Str affects DIRECTLY damage done on skills and CStrikes affects DIRECTLY on damage done and e-management but Mysticism only HELPS to D's e-management that HELPS to spam pbaoe ench that HELPS to do damage while you are in melee range. See my point ?

This is where Anet's concept flops horribly. They fail to realise the last thing a dervish needs is damage from his enchantments when the scythe can score big numbers. What is needed is changing the end effects of short recharge enchantments to powerful utility effects like point blank adjacent KD or short daze duration.

The whole misconception dervish is a martial profession is stem from the mistakes Anet made in 'marketing' this profession through gimmick skills like their avatars instead of the profession's mechanics. And the dervish enchantments aren't a saving grace either when they throw in some easily applicable conditions as ending effects of the short recharge enchantments. Then the players are forced to try to prolong and cover their enchantments when there are very little incentives provided to remove it prematurely in order to fully utilise mysticism. Hence, we have come to this stage where we think mysticism is rubbish when the real culprits are dervish skills.

I just don't think dervish should be balance along the lines of warrior and assassin but against the ranger.